CumInCAD is a Cumulative Index about publications in Computer Aided Architectural Design
supported by the sibling associations ACADIA, CAADRIA, eCAADe, SIGraDi, ASCAAD and CAAD futures

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_id 554e
authors Koutamanis, Alexander
year 2001
title 3 x 2 Approaches to Design Management
doi https://doi.org/10.52842/conf.ecaade.2001.220
source Architectural Information Management [19th eCAADe Conference Proceedings / ISBN 0-9523687-8-1] Helsinki (Finland) 29-31 August 2001, pp. 220-225
summary Following the arguably successful introduction of building, project and real estate management to traditional architectural areas, design management is emerging as the new hot issue. One of the main arguments for it is the alleged low performance of the architect in the face of the technical complexity and operational intricacy that characterizes current design problems. In this respect, management is seen as the missing link in the architect’s methodical and operational framework. The paper suggests that this link derives more from the constraints of the domain and its subject matter rather than a management perspective. Design management refers to two main dimensions of architectural design, these of design method and of design subject. With respect to the first dimension we distinguish between three main categories: proscriptive, prescriptive and descriptive approaches. In the second dimension the distinction is between the coordination of the design process and that of the design product. The 3x2 matrix defined by these two dimensions stresses the significance of descriptive approaches for the informatization of the representation and communication of the design product. In this framework design information management emerges as an applied area of (computational) design theory that facilitates the amphidrome development of a design, i.e. not only from brief to postoccupancy but also from detail, case and precedent to design idea and solution, as well as the identification and management of critical moments, i.e. moments characterized by convergence of activities and hence extensive and intensive communication.
keywords Method, Management, Descriptive, Informatization
series eCAADe
email
last changed 2022/06/07 07:51

_id 72fb
authors Koutamanis, Alexander
year 2001
title On the Management of Visual Design Documentation
doi https://doi.org/10.52842/conf.ecaade.2001.124
source Architectural Information Management [19th eCAADe Conference Proceedings / ISBN 0-9523687-8-1] Helsinki (Finland) 29-31 August 2001, pp. 124-130
summary One of the most significant consequences of computerization in design practice is a spectacular increase in the amount and complexity of information produced for the specification, analysis and communication of design decisions and products. Computerization is intended to have a positive effect on such subjects but offers no builtin guarantees. The complexity, redundancy and amount of information that is generated on a variety of media has accentuated the problems of archiving, indexing and retrieving design documentation, either in the same project or in related ones. The shortcomings of visual information processing derive from a number of inherent problems: lack of integration in information carriers and kinds; organizational uncertainty, especially with respect to archiving and retrieval; superficial replication of analogue practices; limited understanding of information utility; chronic underestimates of automation potential coupled to overestimates of costs. A progressive improvement of design documentation should focus on: (1) the integration of information kinds and carriers in a single representation (in the direction of virtual prototyping); (2) correlation of information registration and processing with information utility; (3) structural rather than opportunistic or deterministic integration of utility requirements in design representations; (4) recognition of informatization and information management as a new specialization that complements existing roles in the design and management of the built environment
keywords Computerization, Management, Visual Representation, Integration
series eCAADe
email
last changed 2022/06/07 07:51

_id sigradi2005_333
id sigradi2005_333
authors Koutamanis, Alexander
year 2005
title Group design evaluation
source SIGraDi 2005 - [Proceedings of the 9th Iberoamerican Congress of Digital Graphics] Lima - Peru 21-24 november 2005, vol. 1, pp. 333-337
summary Architectural visualization refers not only to the bulk of documents produced in the externalization of design representations but also to a major component of design communication and decision-taking. The paper focuses on the use of visualization in group design processes, i.e. processes typically involving the issues of common authorship, multi-actor design and intensive interaction between different aspects. It proposes that effective group design visualization requires hybrid environments that combine digital and analogue media in unobtrusive and efficient support structures. Registration of design information in group visualization refers primarily to two complementary dimensions: the syntagmatic (the sequence of actions that produce an image) and the paradigmatic (the collection of graphic primitives in the image). Recording syntagmatic information (i.e. who drew what and when) is essential for disentangling the usually dense results of group visualization and for distinguishing between actors, aspects and alternatives.
series SIGRADI
email
last changed 2016/03/10 09:54

_id 2005_629
id 2005_629
authors Koutamanis, Alexander
year 2005
title A Biased History of CAAD
doi https://doi.org/10.52842/conf.ecaade.2005.629
source Digital Design: The Quest for New Paradigms [23nd eCAADe Conference Proceedings / ISBN 0-9541183-3-2] Lisbon (Portugal) 21-24 September 2005, pp. 629-637
summary The democratization and popularization of the computer has brought on fundamental changes to many areas related to computer science, including CAAD. Such areas have been facing the necessity to reposition and reorient themselves in rapidly evolving academic and professional frameworks. A factor that complicates the processes of repositioning and reorientation is that most areas have a short but varied and frequently incoherent history that may be poorly understood. The paper is an attempt to trace the history of CAAD by means of publications. This refers to both key publications and the thematic structure of the overall CAAD production. The underlying hypothesis is that CAAD derives from two distinct ambitions, the technology-driven, bottom-up development of architectural computer graphics and the more domain theory-minded, top-down automation of designing. A third, less popular ambition is the computerization of analysis and evaluation, which can be treated as a subcategory of the previous two. The results of the bibliographic analysis are summarized in a timeline that indicates a convergence of ambitions and approaches in the 1980s, the period when CAAD became a recognizable area. In the 1990s the democratization and popularization of the computer caused diversification of CAAD activities over a wide spectrum, ranging from support to end-use of computer systems to computational theory and including the development of advanced, specific applications in cooperation with other architecture, building or design specializations.
keywords History; Bibliography; Drawing; Design; Computerization
series eCAADe
email
last changed 2022/06/07 07:51

_id sigradi2005_468
id sigradi2005_468
authors Koutamanis, Alexander
year 2005
title The continuity style in architectural dynamic visualization
source SIGraDi 2005 - [Proceedings of the 9th Iberoamerican Congress of Digital Graphics] Lima - Peru 21-24 november 2005, vol. 1, pp. 468-472
summary The term “continuity style” in cinema refers to a collection of cinematic conventions aiming at a realistic viewing experience without drawing attention to the elements of illusion used in the representation of 3D space on 2D film. The continuity style underlies the majority of narrative films produced to date and has had a significant influence on other genres, including documentaries. Despite the similarities in purpose, architectural filmmaking owes little to the cumulative knowledge of filmmaking encapsulated in the continuity style. While narrative films focus on the viewing experience, architectural animation tends to be dominated by integral 3D building models. We propose that key elements of the continuity style could be applied to architectural dynamic visualization in order to enhance both lay perception of architectural space and professional analysis of design intentions. These elements refer to four primary areas of architectural dynamic visualization: narrative, camera use, lighting and model structure.
series SIGRADI
email
last changed 2016/03/10 09:54

_id 2006_152
id 2006_152
authors Koutamanis, Alexander
year 2006
title Contextual awareness in mobile information processing
doi https://doi.org/10.52842/conf.ecaade.2006.152
source Communicating Space(s) [24th eCAADe Conference Proceedings / ISBN 0-9541183-5-9] Volos (Greece) 6-9 September 2006, pp. 152-159
summary Applications of mobile information technologies in architecture and building require a high degree of contextual awareness not only for localization but also for distinguishing between different types of information (relevant, redundant, stable etc.). This awareness refers to the physical context of a device, as well as to the social dynamics of the situation (including interaction with shared information). Architectural knowledge and in particular design representations support the development of contextual awareness but there are significant differences between these representations and the use of information they convey in mobile applications.
keywords Mobile information processing; context; representation; information systems
series eCAADe
email
last changed 2022/06/07 07:51

_id 2006_384
id 2006_384
authors Koutamanis, Alexander
year 2006
title Recognizing architectural representations
doi https://doi.org/10.52842/conf.ecaade.2006.384
source Communicating Space(s) [24th eCAADe Conference Proceedings / ISBN 0-9541183-5-9] Volos (Greece) 6-9 September 2006, pp. 384-391
summary The paper presents an overview of mechanisms underlying architectural perception and recognition. These include both general perceptual principles and specific domain constraints. The former determine the objective identification of elements and relationships in any visual scene, while the latter make architectural styles recognizable even to perceivers without extensive acquaintance with architecture. This is because many of the architectural constraints underlying a style have a firm foundation in general principles.
keywords Representation; recognition; perception; architectural style
series eCAADe
email
last changed 2022/06/07 07:51

_id ijac20075401
id ijac20075401
authors Koutamanis, Alexander
year 2007
title Fuzzy Modelling for Early Architectural Design
source International Journal of Architectural Computing vol. 5 - no. 4, pp. 589-610
summary Fuzzy modelling is simultaneously an extension of existing modelling approaches and a negation of one of their main aspects, the crispness of their definition. As a digital equivalent of analogue sketching it allows designers to register and manipulate imprecise and uncertain information. In the framework of design representations fuzzy modelling supports the development of conceptual design models characterized by flexible definition and interaction. The main advantages of such models are fluency, abstraction and continuity, at a level similar to that of analogue techniques. In addition to that they offer the possibility of local autonomy, i.e. segmentation of a representation into self-regulating and cooperating components. Three alternative forms of fuzzy modelling are proposed: (1) Canonical objects with tolerances, (2) objects described by minimal and maximal values, and (3) point sets comprising discrete, autonomous particles that describe the object by their spatial or structural relationships.
series journal
email
last changed 2008/02/25 20:30

_id cf2007_183
id cf2007_183
authors Koutamanis, Alexander
year 2007
title Use of a Mobile Architectural Guide
source Computer Aided Architectural Design Futures / 978-1-4020-6527-9 2007 [Proceedings of the 12th International Conference on Computer Aided Architectural Design Futures / 978-1-4020-6527-9] Sydney (Australia) 11–13 July 2007, pp. 183-195
summary A mobile architectural guide assists architectural tourists in selecting, navigating to and recognizing architectural sights. The guide supports such tasks by means of domain knowledge, design documentation and contextual information organized into navigation modules, architectural information systems and learning modules.
series CAAD Futures
email
last changed 2007/07/06 12:47

_id ecaade2007_039
id ecaade2007_039
authors Koutamanis, Alexander
year 2007
title Matching Representation to Perception
doi https://doi.org/10.52842/conf.ecaade.2007.551
source Predicting the Future [25th eCAADe Conference Proceedings / ISBN 978-0-9541183-6-5] Frankfurt am Main (Germany) 26-29 September 2007, pp. 551-558
summary Visual representations play an important role in mobile architectural guides, especially with respect to the identification of buildings, i.e. matching internal representations to external ones (the documentation in the guide) and the perceived scene. By restructuring this documentation into networks of significant architectural entities and features a guide is enriched with flexible, economical means for supporting building identification under the typically variable conditions architectural travelers have to endure.
keywords Mobile computing, architectural guide, representation, perception, recognition
series eCAADe
email
last changed 2022/06/07 07:51

_id ijac20108208
id ijac20108208
authors Koutamanis, Alexander
year 2010
title W.J. Mitchell - In Celebration of An Approach
source International Journal of Architectural Computing vol. 8 - no. 2, 223-231
summary Among the founding fathers of architectural computing, the late W.J. Mitchell was arguably the one who managed to capture the imagination of the younger generations through overviews and insights that described the backgrounds and scope of the area in a way that was suitable for novices as well as people outside the area. Calling such overviews successful popularization is only part of the truth. More importantly, they formulate a coherent and comprehensive approach that allowed Mitchell to move between eras and contexts without loosing focus or sacrificing fundamental priorities. It is an approach that remains valid and usable, a source of inspiration and understanding for future generations in the area.
series journal
last changed 2019/05/24 09:55

_id ijac201715202
id ijac201715202
authors Koutamanis, Alexander
year 2017
title Briefing and Building Information Modelling: Potential for integration
source International Journal of Architectural Computing vol. 15 - no. 2, 120-133
summary The article brings together the subjects of briefing and Building Information Modelling. It considers the brief as information source for Building Information Modelling and Building Information Modelling as an environment for automating brief- related analysis and guidance. The approach is characterized by feedforward and feedback, incorporation of constraints from the brief in Building Information Modelling, connection of briefing goals to performance analysis and correlation of requirements in the brief to Building Information Modelling object properties and relations. To test the approach, 10 briefs are parsed into goals, constraints and requirements, which are then considered for integration in Building Information Modelling. As the majority of these items can become part of a model and subject to automated analyses, integration of briefing in Building Information Modelling is proposed as a viable option that can improve design and briefing performance but also signals significant changes to briefing.
keywords Briefing, Building Information Modelling, integration, continuity, feedforward, feedback, analysis
series other
type normal paper
email
last changed 2019/08/02 08:29

_id caadria2007_475
id caadria2007_475
authors Koutamanis, Alexander; Gilles Halin and Thomas Kvan
year 2007
title Information Standardization from a Design Perspective
doi https://doi.org/10.52842/conf.caadria.2007.x.j8j
source CAADRIA 2007 [Proceedings of the 12th International Conference on Computer Aided Architectural Design Research in Asia] Nanjing (China) 19-21 April 2007
summary One common assumption concerning the digitization of architectural processes and products is that it should be supported by extensive standardization of design and building information. This standardization should extend beyond pre-existing conventions of the analogue period in terms of scope, integration, continuity, flexibility and adaptability. From a design perspective standardization refers to three distinct information types with different origins: geometric, categorical and project-specific information. Such information is accommodated in standards and building models either top-down or bottom-up, resulting into different possibilities and limitations.
series CAADRIA
email
last changed 2022/06/07 07:50

_id ecaade2007_148
id ecaade2007_148
authors Koutamanis, Alexander; Halin, Gilles; Kvan, Thomas
year 2007
title Indexing and Retrieval of Visual Design Representations
doi https://doi.org/10.52842/conf.ecaade.2007.319
source Predicting the Future [25th eCAADe Conference Proceedings / ISBN 978-0-9541183-6-5] Frankfurt am Main (Germany) 26-29 September 2007, pp. 319-326
summary Indexing and retrieval of architectural visual databases refer to multiple levels of abstraction and various points of view which may co-exist in a single image. This complexity is increased by the necessity to structure architectural images into well-defined, meaningful representations. We propose that the correlation of domain analysis and general methods and techniques provides the background to the solution of most problems and a deeper understanding of the structure of indexing and retrieval in architecture.
keywords Representation, database, indexing, retrieval
series eCAADe
email
last changed 2022/06/07 07:51

_id 5509
authors Koutamanis, Alexandros
year 1990
title Development of a computerized handbook of architectural plans
source Delft University of Technology
summary The dissertation investigates an approach to the development of visual / spatial computer representations for architectural purposes through the development of the computerized handbook of architectural plans (chap), a knowledge-based computer system capable of recognizing the metric properties of architectural plans. This investigation can be summarized as an introduction of computer vision to the computerization of architectural representations: chap represents an attempt to automate recognition of the most essential among conventional architectural drawings, floor plans. The system accepts as input digitized images of architectural plans and recognizes their spatial primitives (locations) and their spatial articulation on a variety of abstraction levels. The final output of chap is a description of the plan in terms of the grouping formations detected in its spatial articulation. The overall structure of the description is based on an analysis of its conformity to the formal rules of its “stylistic” context (which in the initial version of chap is classical architecture). Chapter 1 suggests that the poor performance of computerized architectural drawing and design systems is among others evidence of the necessity to computerize visual / spatial architectural representations. A recognition system such as chap offers comprehensive means for the investigation of a methodology for the development and use of such representations. Chapter 2 describes a fundamental task of chap: recognition of the position and shape of locations, the atomic parts of the description of an architectural plan in chap. This operation represents the final and most significant part of the first stage in processing an image input in machine environment. Chapter 3 moves to the next significant problem, recognition of the spatial arrangement of locations in an architectural plan, that is, recognition of grouping relationships that determine the subdivision of a plan into parts. In the absence of systematic and exhaustive typologic studies of classical architecture that would allow us to define a repertory of the location group types possible in classical architectural plans, Chapter 3 follows a bottom-up approach based on grouping relationships derived from elementary architectural knowledge and formalized with assistance from Gestalt theory and its antecedents. The grouping process described in Chapter 3 corresponds both in purpose and in structure to the derivation of a description of an image in computer vision [Marr 1982]. Chapter 4 investigates the well-formedness of the description of a classical architectural plan in an analytical manner: each relevant level (or sublevel) of the classical canon according to Tzonis & Lefaivre [1986] is transformed into a single group of criteria of well-formedness which is investigated independently. The hierarchical structure of the classical canon determines the coordination of these criteria into a sequence of cognitive filters which progressively analyses the correspondence of the descriptions derived as in Chapter 3 to the constraints of the canon. The methodology and techniques presented in the dissertation are primarily considered with respect to chap, a specific recognition system. The resulting specification of chap gives a measure of the use of such a system within the context of a computerized collection of architectural precedents and also presents several extensions to other areas of architecture. Although these extensions are not considered as verifiable claims, Chapter 5 describes some of their implications, including on the role of architectural drawing in computerized design systems, on architectural typologies, and on the nature and structure of generative systems in architecture.
series thesis:PhD
email
last changed 2003/02/12 22:37

_id 49fc
id 49fc
authors KOUZELEAS Stelios, SEMIDOR Catherine
year 2001
title THE INFLUENCE OF THE SIMPLIFIED ARCHITECTURAL MODEL ON THE ACOUSTICAL SIMULATION RESULTS
source 17th International Congress on Acoustics, Proceedings : Vol. III - Architectural acoustics - Opera house acoustics - p. 46-47 – ISBN : 88-88387-02-1, 2-7 Septembre 2001, Rome, Italy
summary The sometimes complex architectural shape of halls creates modelling difficulties as the simulation computing systems need plane surfaces. In order to approach a perfect shape of curved surfaces, a big number of facets is necessary. This poses, as a consequence, computer memory problems which is the case of the horse shoe shaped Opera House with its richly decorated columns, balconies, etc. This paper compares the acoustical measurement results and the calculation results of a computer simulation software applied on several models (from the most simple till the most complex ones) of the Grand Theatre of Bordeaux.
keywords Acoustics simulation, CAD modeling, room acoustics, architectural model simplification
series other
type normal paper
email
more http://ims-ism.nrc-cnrc.gc.ca/ica/proceedg.html
last changed 2005/10/24 19:59

_id 753d
id 753d
authors KOUZELEAS Stelios, SEMIDOR Catherine
year 2002
title ARCHITECTURAL TRANSLATION OF THE ACOUSTICAL RESULTS
source International congress of the Institute of Acoustics, subject : Auditorium Acoustics : Historical and contemporary design and performance, Imperial College, Proceedings : Vol. 25 - Part 4 - 2002 – ISBN : 1 901656 47 0, 19-21 July 2002, London, England
summary The acoustical measurements or calculation results create comprehension difficulties for the architects. In order to give the architects the means to appreciate and evaluate the acoustical results and as a consequence facilitates the collaboration between acousticians and architects, these results must be “translated” and presented in a comprehensible and architectural way. This will also permit the architects to have a help base during the architectural conception and finally create a common language of evaluation of the acoustical results. This paper presents the acoustical simulation results with a graphical method of comparison of the obtained results with the optimal acoustical results taking into account different architectural elements as the volume of the model, the type and the configuration of the spectacle, the optimal acoustical rate, etc. This graphical comparison of the “architectural translation of the acoustical results” concerns all the possible configurations of one or more objective criteria of an adjusted number of architectural models in relation to the optimal acoustical rates.
keywords Architecture, CAD simulation, Architectural acoustics
series other
type normal paper
email
more http://www.ioa.org.uk/
last changed 2005/10/25 09:37

_id 2961
id 2961
authors KOUZELEAS Stelios
year 2004
title COMPUTATIONAL PROCESSES OF A HALL CAD MODELISATION FOR ACOUSTIC SIMULATION ACCORDING TO ACCEPTED GEOMETRY FORMAT VIA ACOUSTIC SOFTWARE
source 1st International Conference “From Scientific Computing to Computational Engineering” (IC-SCCE), 8-10 September 2004, Athens, Greece
summary The acoustic computational simulation presents many advantages but at the same time there are some limits corresponding, among others, to the modelisation of the hall geometry. The integrated modelers of geometry of the halls in the acoustic simulation software are based especially on the programming code modelisation via text editors of coordinate points and not on the graphical modelisation, as the CAD software is. In cases of complex architectural shapes of halls, the majority of the acoustic simulation software imperatively needs to import a model from a CAD software. However, the modelisation of the geometry of the hall must take into account several criteria in order to run in an acoustic simulation software, and optimize the calculation results, such as the plane surfaces, the limited number of surfaces in some cases, the elimination of the unnecessary elements, the accepted geometry model format, etc. This paper explains the description and the particularities of three different modelisation processes of the Architectural School Amphitheater of Bordeaux in a CAD system in order to be adequate for acoustic simulation via acoustic software, such as ASCII, dxf and normals orientation model formats. It also presents computer automatization aspects of these processes integrated in a plate-form adaptable to a CAD system named “CAD-Acoustic.” These modelisation processes can also be a helpful tool during the architectural conception of the acoustic hall.
keywords CAD modelisation process, Architectural acoustics, Acoustic simulation
series other
type normal paper
email
more http://ic-scce.upatras.gr/
last changed 2005/10/25 09:47

_id 999e
id 999e
authors KOUZELEAS Stelios
year 2004
title APPLICATIONS OF ACOUSTIC AND GEOMETRIC SIMULATION OF HALLS WITH THE AID OF WITH THE AID OF ACOUSTIC SIMULATION PLATE-FORM ADAPTABLE IN A CAD SYSTEM. - (EFARMOGES AKOUSTIKHS KAI GEWMETRIKHS PROSOMOIOSHS AITHOUSWN ME TH BOHTHEIA PLATFORMAS AKOYSTIKHS PROSOMOIOSHS PROSARMOSMENHS SE SYSTHMA CAD)
source Acoustics 2004, Hellenic Institute of Acoustics (HELINA), Aristotle University of Thessaloniki, 27-28 September 2004, Greece
summary (pdf file in greek)- With the aid of the acoustic simulation plate-form named « CAD-Acoustic » which is developed in the context of PhD and adapted on the AutoCAD system, this paper presents the halls acoustic results (RT60) of Elmia (Sweden) and Opera of Bordeaux (France) in relation to acoustic measurements and results of other acoustic simulation software (Odeon, Epidaure). In parallel, it presents geometrical simulations of the modelised halls’ acoustic behavior, such as the 3D reflections of the acoustic rays from selected surface, the 3D view of the materials’ arrangements through surfaces’ coloring, the measurement of the selected absorbing / reflecting surfaces in m2 and the individual or massive absorption coefficients’ assignment to the surfaces. Finally, with the aid of « CAD-Acoustic » the acoustic results are compared in a graphic manner in relation to the ideal acoustic rates, a presentation which is a kind of an “ architectural translation of the acoustic results” taking into account several architectural elements.
keywords CAD modeling, "CAD-Acoustic" software developement, Architectural acoustic simulation
series other
type normal paper
email
more http://www.helina.gr/
last changed 2005/10/25 11:22

_id 6795
id 6795
authors KOUZELEAS Stelios
year 2005
title DEFINITION OF A METHOD OF LIMITS OF THE SIMPLIFICATION OF A HALL MODEL IN A CAD SYSTEM TO DIMINISH FALSIFICATION OF ACOUSTIC SIMULATION RESULTS
source International Congress eCAADe 2005 (Education and research in Computer Aided Architectural Design in Europe), subject : “Digital Desing : the quest for new paradigms”, ISBN 0-9541183-2-4, pp. 695-704, Technical University of Lisbon, Portugal, 21-24 September 2005
summary During the modelling, because of the sometimes complex architectural shape of halls, we were forced to introduce simplifications in order to carry out calculations and simulation operations on these halls, as the calculation software requires plane surfaces. This paper presents a developed tool adapted on a CAD modelling system (AutoCAD), which defines an “average limits” of the model simplification operation in order to control and diminish the falsification of calculation and simulation results on this model, such as the architectural acoustic simulation. The process of the elaboration and the adjustment of the simplified models of the Grand Theatre of Bordeaux (GTB) based on acoustical measurements and their calculation results are described in detail in a previous article (Kouzeleas and Semidor, 2001). The analysis process of the consequences of the hall model simplification on the acoustical simulation results and the applied simplification methods are described in a PhD thesis (Kouzeleas, 2002). This article is based on this analysis process in order to apply it on several simplified models of the Amphitheatre of the Architecture School of Bordeaux (Amphi-EAPB). The comparison in a CAD system (AutoCAD) of the acoustical calculation results and the areas after simplification of the simplified models of these two halls made with AutoCAD, via the developed tool adapted on the AutoCAD, permit to define a “limits average of a hall model simplification” before the falsification of these calculation results.
series other
type normal paper
email
more http://www.civil.ist.utl.pt/ecaade05/
last changed 2005/10/25 12:19

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